Good Therapist Bad Psychologist

Episode 31

Tina: 00:04 Hey everybody, this is Tina again with good nurse, a bad nurse, and this week I have a special guest with me. We're going to be dedicating this whole episode to psychologists. So I have a psychologist and therapist and I hope I said that right Ryan from the podcasts. Pop Psych one o one hi Ryan.

Ryan: 00:24 Hi Tina. Thank you so much for having me on your show. I wish I could claim the title of psychologists, but I have not gone to medical school or gotten my phd or anything that would allow me to claim such a lofty title. So just therapist. I'm a, I'm a licensed clinical social worker. I've had my master's in social work.

Tina: 00:40 Okay, perfect. So that brings us to really what we were going to talk about and that are a little icebreaker and that is, it's a little bit confusing when you, when all of the different titles that people can hold who are therapists or counselors or whatever you want to call it. I recently was looking for a counselor for my son and I asked him before this episode, it was like, do you care if I say it? He goes, I don't care what it, whenever. So, and I found it to be kind of confusing. I was trying to the different counselors and of course I had to have one that would, could deal with the 14 year old and, and then it was okay, there's social workers and their therapist and there are psychologists there. What, what's the difference Ryan?

Ryan: 01:20 Yeah, so a lot of it is just educational background. So specifically therapists, you can have licensed clinical social workers such as myself, which is basically I have my master's degree in social work and then it requires a certain amount of years of supervised training. So working but working underneath a supervisor to make sure you have your sort of clinical hours. And then there is other, other types of therapists include licensed professional counselors or Lpcs, which is a little bit more of a specified sort of educational route. And that their training is specifically to become counselors or therapists, social workers. Um, you know, you can go to school for clinical social work as I did or you can be sort of more in the administrative realm, work as a manager of let's say a group home or a substance abuse facility, things like that. And then you have psychologists who are typically have their phd and can have a broad range of specialties.

Ryan: 02:17 The most common is just your, your sort of garden variety clinical psychologist who might see patients as a therapist does or might specialize in things like research or teaching or could even specialize further and do things like occupational psychology where they work in um, like work environments or educational psychology where they specify with children or um, even like bio biological psychologists or bio psychologists who specialize in brain functioning and things like that. So there is a lot of variety and it can be overwhelming. And now even you have all this range of like coaches sprouting up and what even that looks like. Typically basically a coach can that the way I describe it to is a coach as an expert in their field and that they can give you instructions on how to complete tasks actually even use, um, we talked about on our show, Marie Kondo. Um, so she'd be a great example of a coach, right? She comes in, gives you a prescribed set of tasks to become better at something. Okay. Um, and then the therapist has a more sort of broad range of skills or expertise in that you are the expert on yourself and they are helping you sort of gain insight into your, let's say, thoughts or behaviors or negative past experiences. Yeah.

Tina: 03:34 So what would, what advice would you give to people if someone is maybe thinking that they need a counselor or therapist? What when, when they're going to, because like I said, I found it kind of confusing and difficult and I, we got, so I felt like we got so lucky because believe I loves the, um, the therapist that we found. I don't know how that happened and we were so thankful, but I could see how it could happen that you might have to go through a few different ones if you know, maybe the, if you don't match up or, I don't know, it just seems like it would almost be almost like a dating kind of thing. You would kind of like get to know the person and think, ah, I don't think this person is right for me and you'd have to move on. But what do you think?

Ryan: 04:19 It's tough because it's not like seeing your sort of general practitioner, a doctor where you know, you just go in, they check your symptoms and give you your medicine and you're on your way. There's, there's is a required amount of trust that's needed. And to have that trust, you have to have comfort and you don't necessarily have to be comfortable with your general practitioner. Yeah. For them to give you your medicine. But with a therapist, absolutely. There needs to be a certain relationship that's formed. So I have a couple of thoughts on that. Um, one is group practices can be really effective places to start because you can get, let's say a general evaluation by let's say someone that works in their admissions department and then they can link you up based on your, let's say treatment needs with someone who best fits that within their practice.

Ryan: 05:02 So you might not know what you're looking for, but they have seen, let's say patients like your son and can link them up with someone who might specialize with males or with people dealing with whatever sort of presentation you're assigned might have coming in. So that's one thing. And the other thing we often recommend is going through a referral. So if you really like your general practitioner, start with them. They might have therapist's recommendations or clinic recommendations that you would go for them. So we try to direct people through sources they're already comfortable with because you know, while there are good resources like psychology today, which you can go in and sort of plug in your zip code and your uh, insurance and you can find local therapists. To your point, you're, you're sort of just hoping for a gust of wind to do the right Mary Poppins I guess. Right? Yeah. So, so it can be a sort of trial and error in that way.

Tina: 05:54 So. Okay. Well that's interesting. So later on and when we kind of get to the, the good, good quote, good nurse part of the story, we're going to talk more about your podcast and what you're doing to help people. For now though, we're going to talk a little bit about our little true crime portion of the show. The, the bad nurse or the, in this case, the bad quote, bad psychologist, which know I say bad, but I don't know, after, after really researching this story and seeing all the different stories and I found a really, really in depth article on this, on slate that told all of the details. And after reading everything, I'm not going to say she's a bad person on a flight, but, uh, at the same time I'll let other people give their opinion about what they think you know about what happened.

Tina: 06:39 For sure. So there, it was a very complicated situation. So basically what happened is on April 16th, 1995, 25 year old Gonzalo Ramirez was founded on the side of the road in Irvine, California. He had gashes all over his body. His skull was cracked, and two of his fingers on one hand had almost been completely severed. Investigators determined the gashes had been made with a meat cleaver. So clearly this was a very violent death. He had been tortured and somebody was obviously very angry with him. It was, it was clear to, to the investigators, they had just received a report of an attack on, on him a few hours earlier. Apparently he had been out at a dance club with a friend, Noel Rias I think is maybe how you ran. And they, so they're another right. They just left this dance club and they're going on the road and they were hit in the back of their truck by a white van.

Tina: 07:34 And we've talked before. I'm on good nurse Benders is about the dangerous of fans. Uh, I'd joke around about, about kidnapped vans all the time. It's not really funny, but that's how I deal Brian with, with, with things I'm uncomfortable with. I lacked good. I just laugh at everything that makes me uncomfortable. So anyway, they were hit by in the back of a van and I've got one of the, there were several people in his fan and this is according to Ray as the passenger that he said that one of the guys at the van got out and started beating up Ramirez. So he went to try to help him. And then another guy got out of the van and he just thought, okay, I'm not, I'm clearly not in any shape to be able to take on these two people. So he took off riding, went to a nearby hotel and got a security guard.

Tina: 08:20 By the time they got back, they were all gone. The van, his truck, I think was even gone. I think they all just left and all the people, whoever was in the van, I think he said he saw a woman kept couple of guys maybe. And so the police start trying to investigate and what happened? Clearly he's dead now. What? What's going on is, is there anything, he's, he's married and also has some girlfriends, but what's the deal? Why is, why would somebody targeting him in particular? So they go to his apartment and he has a roommate and he funds on one of his bills, the name Patty and phone number. And they asked the roommate, you know what, do you know who this person is? And the roommates as well. He was kind of bragging a few weeks ago about going out with this girl and he said that he said that he was kind of like laying on the bed or something.

Tina: 09:11 Let me know if you get, if I get something wrong here. I think he was like, he was laying on the bed and then Ramirez took, grabbed like the bottom cuff of his pants and yanked them off. And he basically said, that's what I did to this girl before I had sex with her. So police were thinking, hmm, this is interesting. He's got the name, they go and look up the number. And it is the, the net, the phone number is two, a dorm room at a college nearby college. And the person who was living in that particular dorm was Patricia as far as that. And so patty, you know, Patricia, so the story about, of course he's, he put it having sex with her. She had a little bit of a different story about what happened. And so police go and find her and, and um, and talk to her about it.

Tina: 10:02 And so she says, well, yeah, he, he raped me. And she told the story of her, her story of what happened. And she said that, that he raped her. And then the next day she went to the nurse and I find this really tragic and unfortunate, but she's, she went to the campus, I guess like Health Center, Health Center, you know, and the nurse, I think she's kind of made it seem like the nurse sort of was judging her, you know, and I don't know if she was, didn't necessarily believe her, but she was kind of, well she didn't tell her. She didn't encourage her to go to the police and fire and fill out a report. So she, she just kind of felt judged. And so she took the, I guess the morning after pill and then at some point she was struggling in her colon, one of her classes.

Tina: 10:47 And she talked to her professor about it. And I guess she kind of broke down crying and told the professor what happened. And there again, there's another person who heard her story and just kind of went on and on and didn't, didn't say, you know, you really should go tell someone. And so this 20 year old young lady who just had been through this horrific incident is I'm sure you know, scared and going through all of the this and you can talk about it a little bit about that, what, you know, what she might've been, I'm sure you know, going through it, but she's probably feeling like it was her fault. Do you think she was kind of blaming herself?

Ryan: 11:22 Well, yeah. I mean it seemed like there was a lot of hesitancy on what to do with this story now after she had had some of these negative reactions from people, you know, when it goes on and I'm sure it will cover, you know, each person that she talks to has this sort of different negative reaction really to the fact that this happened to her. So, so, absolutely. There's, and obviously it comes out later in the story that she had, um, abuse from her own past as well. So yes, it's a really complex situation for Patty.

Tina: 11:49 It really was. And so then she says the only other person she told was at some point that she had an ex boyfriend that she had broken up with a few months earlier and he, I guess would still sort of hanging around and he would call her and come around. And he came over to her place and she was visibly upset about something and he kept on trying to get her to tell him what was going on. And she finally admitted to him what happened and he was very upset about it and he insisted that she tell him who it was. So she did. So then she told him where she met this guy and then he made plans with some friends of his and she says she didn't know these people. She didn't really know them, she didn't know what they were capable of, but then they all kind of went to this club where she met him before and it just hope and hopes that he would be there.

Tina: 12:39 And as it turns out, unfortunately for him, he was, and she pointed him out that night, her ex boyfriend, while he, he's kind of being like wanting to get revenge for her, but at the same time she said he was sort of judgmental also and blaming her and saying it was her fault and she shouldn't have had him come back to her apartment. And because when she told the story, she admits that she had kind of walked around together, had, I don't think it'll kind of went to eat there. They were sort of maybe on sort of a date. And then they went back to her apartment because he said he wanted a drink, a water, and then he talks her into laying down in the bed. So there's some things that happened, whereas, you know, a 21 or 20 year old girl who had already suffered abuse.

Tina: 13:21 So she probably, she knows how to blame herself for everything, you know? Yeah. So she immediately, all of these things, it was not her fault in any way. It was not her fault, but she, I could see where she would be able to convince herself that it was. And especially when she's got all these people around her treating her like it was including her ex boyfriend who was so conflicted. He's mad and angry at this person, but yet he's sort of treating her like it was her fault also and kind of mad at her. So she's afraid of him. She was just kind of afraid not to go along with this. And, but she does say that she thought the very worst thing that would happen would be maybe they would refer them up a little bit. She never thought they were going to kill him.

Tina: 14:02 So they, they did end up kidnapping Ramirez of course, whenever they rear ended his truck and one of the, so the group little group of, um, the people that he got together, there was a couple who owned a transmission shop, like a auto. Yeah. And so in this automotive shop, they have where I guess chains hanging from. So and so when they took him back to and, and, and the, the female [inaudible], the wife and the husband both were involved in this. And I dunno how much involved, the wife says that she wasn't involved in the initial kidnapping, but that she went to the shop that evening to see, just out of curiosity to see what was going on. And she says, and so I know that as far as, uh, the, the rape victim said that she saw Ramirez hanging from chains. So they had basically had him hanging up.

Tina: 15:02 And so all of these people were kind of involved in this thing. It's, I don't know that it's ever really that clear who did the killing or what happened, but as far as the says that she was told by her ex boyfriend that they let him go. So she didn't actually think that he died. They, she thought they kind of roughed him up a little bit and then let them go. And then the police came to her and when they started asking her questions, of course she's afraid and she's denies everything. And so I guess they told her when they showed her him kind of hanging from the chains, they basically said this is what we'll do to you if you, if you tell. Does that make any sense? I mean I don't even understand it. If he cared so much about her that he's getting rid of them threatening person, you're trying to help.

Tina: 15:47 The whole thing is just really messed up and it almost just kind of feels like someone was just kind of really want an excuse to just hurt someone and it just felt like a good excuse at the time maybe for that person. So this all happened in 1990 1995 so years and years and years go by like 17 years and nothing happens. They had all this evidence, they had DNA evidence at the automotive shop. The, his body was kind of, I don't know if it was wrapped or there was like these blue towel type things were around his body when they found it. That is sort of like even I who, I'd never go to an automotive shop, but I can kind of picture this in my mind, those blue towels, like the stuff they clean the grease off with. Exactly. So that was there and, and it was kind of obvious to the investigators that it probably came from this automotive shop and there was a, an entire role, I guess if those blue towels that was missing and conveniently missing the vendors that I guess had recently dropped off the towels, said that they dropped off two and one wasn't there.

Tina: 16:56 There was a lot of evidence to without any testimony from Patricia Esparza against Van and the owners of the shop and the other people. And yet they pretty much just dropped the whole thing and didn't do anything about it for like 17 years. And then all of a sudden these new investigators come along because murder is murder and there's no statute of limitation. So they're going to, if somebody comes along with a fresh set of eyes. In the meantime, Patricia Esparza graduated from college with her bachelor's degree. She actually, she was a double major. She got her phd and moved to Europe. She started working for the World Health Organization in Geneva and she had married and had a little girl and just, just created this wonderful, beautiful eye for herself that were from where she came from. She and her husband were both born in Mexico and they really built quite a life for themselves in spite of some humble beginnings.

Tina: 17:58 And um, so she at some point is needing to come back to the United States for a conference, not realizing. She said she had no idea. And I believe her, I tend to really work cause I don't think she would've come back. So she comes back and as soon as she gets to the airport, they arrested her. Now I read an account that said that she, I think the investigator sort of reached out to her and gave her the impression that they were just sort of trying to get some information there. We're just investigating. She was considered a victim and so they tell all the suspects. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. You tell all the suspects that you, and I guess from the very beginning she never was really treated like a suspect even when it initially happened. And I honestly don't think she ever saw herself as a suspect.

Tina: 18:48 I think she always saw herself as a victim, which she was. Oh yeah. And I mean, when I hear her story, I feel like she was a victim even with the murder and what happened. I don't, I don't personally blame her. I know other people see it differently and there's a lot of different, as the Internet is, there's a lot of different opinions about it. Correct. I personally just see her as a victim. She was a victim her whole life. You alluded to the fact that she talked about her childhood. She says that her father sexually abused her growing up. I don't think he denied that. And even her, some of her other family members, her mom and her brother and sister, they all kind of concur, you know that. Yeah. And that that sort of can create, and someone she talked about, of course, she's a psychologist, so she understands all of this now.

Tina: 19:39 And it's probably for someone, people sitting on a jury are people sitting on, you know, behind their keyboard on the Internet. They can probably look at this and go, oh look, it's a successful intelligent woman. How can you say she didn't, she couldn't know that that was wrong or, or she was some sort of a victim. But the thing is, she was 20 years old and she did have to develop probably some dissociative type of behaviors, you know, the, that sort of mechanisms to protect herself. And she says that's basically what happened is she basically dissociated herself from the whole event. And she had learned how to do that in her childhood, just going to separate herself. She's a victim of her father, but that, but yet he's her father and she's living in the same house. And even after it all came out that the abuse came out, he continued to live in the same house with them.

Tina: 20:28 So you have to be able to dissociate in order to have your father who is your father and at the same time your abuser, you know, to maintain stability. Right. So she knew how to do that. She naturally did that. It was a coping mechanism or defense defense mechanism, whatever you call it. And so she, that was kind of hurt, I guess, defense or the way that she sort of offended not what she did because she didn't necessarily do anything, but just how she reacted to it. The fact that she didn't go to the police, didn't, she wasn't honest with the police about, about what happened. And so that's now how she tries to explain what happened in 2016. Well, van was convicted in 2015 and given a life sentence. So based on her testimony, they were able to, to arrest van Shannon grise, who was one of the men involved. He got a 25 year prison sentence. Van was given a life sentence. One of the women was given immunity for testifying. The Co owner of the transmission shop, Diane Tran, she was given four years in prison. Her husband Cody trend died by suicide in July of 2012 before they were all arrested. Yeah. And so she went, uh, Patricia Esparza ended up pleading guilty to manslaughter and was sentenced to six years in prison in 2016. So I, it's kind of sad. She's still in prison now.

Ryan: 21:47 Yeah, it is. It's a very sad story. Yeah. Because as you said, she doesn't feel like she's done anything wrong. And if we observe this story with the facts that you just stated, that we might be able to say that she did nothing wrong. I think people are looking at it and even the authorities are looking at it as if she almost as if she like authorized or told them to do this, that she was a party to this murder. But yeah, it's sad to me. I've worked with people who have experienced abuse, um, similar to, to patty and just like she did the, the sort of knowing what to do and the wake of that experience is so difficult. So, you know, this is sort of the worst case scenario I guess, but, but yeah, I really empathized with her seeing its terms of how this played out and how, you know, initially I guess she refused to plea like, because she didn't, um, she didn't feel like it would be her truth really if she sort of admitted or took ownership for this murder having happened

Tina: 22:45 and it would ruin her, her psychology careers and everything would be right. It's terrible what's happened to her, I think. I mean, that's my personal opinion. I think just from reading all the different articles that I've read and all the research that I've done, it seems to me that all of the other people involved backed up her stuff, her version of the events, no one ever said, even though it really would have been to their advantage to say that it was all her idea. Oh, sure. They never said that. Not One of them. No. They all basically said that Gianni van was angry at the fact that she had been raped and that he was the one that was initiating the whole thing. He basically just had her point him out and they never even really said, none of them said that she even knew that uh, have any of their intentions that they were planning to kidnap him or that were at and certainly that they were going to kill him. It was just kind of to me really sad that it seems obvious to me that she didn't really have anything to really do with it. And then there are some on the Internet who I, you know, how people just comment and say dumb things, but who would even try to say that Ramirez didn't really rape her, that she wasn't even really, really right. I think that's ridiculous. Oh sure. Absolutely. I think it's just obvious what happened here.

Ryan: 23:59 Yeah. So I guess, I guess the, the argument is that, you know, if, if she knew that he was going to be murdered, whichever she claims that she did not, and that she aided in that process by like pointing him out in the club and then sort of seeing things happen and then not reporting those things immediately, that like that was enough participation in the event for her to be charged. But, but as she said, you know, she had no intention of that being the ultimate outcome and that she didn't even in pointing them out wasn't sort of intended like, okay, you go beat this guy up now. You know, they wanted to know who he was. She pointed them out. I mean, it's just a tough situation because you really don't know what to do. And you know, whether she wanted justice or whether she was actually a actually claimed in the slate article.

Ryan: 24:47 She was also scared of, of Gianni. And she was scared of these guys knowing, knowing what maybe what they were capable of now, but also just knowing that, you know, maybe they weren't great people. Um, and that she, and even in talking about the rape and similar words, just one of this to be over as soon as possible. So if they were really pushing this on her that she surely just thought, okay, final point, this guy out and then I'm out of here. Like I'm not, I don't want to be part of whatever you guys are trying to do. So yeah, that sad all the way around for sure. Cause she was part of time after time putting these positions are really not knowing how to get herself out of them and her just taking, you know, whatever. Actually she could to get out of the situation as quickly as she could.

Tina: 25:25 Yeah. And I love that she ended up getting a degree in psychology and going on. Yeah. Yeah. And she really has been helping people and advocate for people. Yes. Yeah. For victims and in a voice for victims. It's, it's, to me the only hope that I could have is that when she does get out, I'm sure she can, maybe she can't. I don't know how that works. Maybe she can't as a convicted felon practice as a psychologist, but she, I'm sure it can still do things to, to help people.

Ryan: 25:52 Oh no question. Whether that be as an advocate or um, you know, uh, someone who can, I'm thinking even like aid companies or organizations on sort of the needs of these types of patients. There's no question to me that, that she can be a valuable resource and, and even in telling her own story for, for victims.

Tina: 26:12 Yeah. So hopefully it would be nice if she could get some sort of pardon or something like that from the, from the governor before she has to serve that whole sentence. But it was worst case scenario that's, you know, three more years and then she'll be able to, and it's sad her, her daughter, you know, is getting older and older. Oh, that's, that kills me

Ryan: 26:32 without mom. Yeah.

Tina: 26:34 So I guess we'll move on. That was our, that was our bad story. It's always nice to kind of get past those and so now we're going to be talking are good. Our story this week is kind of about you, Ryan and the work that you're doing with your podcast. And I want you to really tell our listeners about, cause I love the podcast. I think it's so for me to have a resource for mental health issues. It's so important in this day and age where we don't have a lot of, I mean we're fortunate, I'm fortunate enough to have really good insurance. So if any of us have mental health needs where we need to go see a therapist, we can use her insurance where you can use our health spending account and you know, and that sort of thing. It's not cheap by any means. And so I love that you have this available for people who don't have those resources and they can listen to it. It's a, it's funny and entertaining. Mike hilarious. He cracks me up. He's like, he is so funny. As I was listening to you mentioned the Marie Kondo and I was listening to that today and he was killing me today. I was just like, he is so funny. I love to listen to your podcast. So tell, tell them a little bit about what you do and how, how your podcast works.

Ryan: 27:45 Sure. Well, yeah. So thank you first of all so much for those kind words. Um, so pop psych 101 is hosted by myself. Um, oh as you said as a therapist and Mike Graham who is a, um, I guess you'd say an advocate for um, mental health. He all all has also been open on the show about his own mental health struggles and has admitted to being in therapy. So we come to the table with those different perspectives. And the way we talk about mental health is through the lens of popular culture. So, you know, me as a therapist, I always want to help people get this information that I talk about with my patients every day. You know, how can I help a broader audience get these insights that my patients are learning and learning for themselves, but also it could be valuable to people that maybe are not in therapy.

Ryan: 28:33 So I've always wanted to try to find ways to make that information accessible. And even as you said, entertaining, because I think if, if we can make it light, if we can make it accessible for people, sort of give people a side door into this process, you know, then then they can learn about what depression and anxiety is without it being this heavy complex topic. So each episode we take a a pop culture reference point. As we said, this week's episode was Marie Kondo is show a tidying up on Netflix and we talk about the mental health issues that are portrayed in the show or movie or book or eventually we're hoping to do music that'll be a different challenge. But, but yeah, so basically we say, okay, you know, this is what's going on in this piece of media. What are we seeing here? What are the sort of implications for someone who might be struggling with these issues? What would treatment look like? What would recovery look like? And we tried to do all that and an entertaining light way so that people can get information, but also in a way that it doesn't have to be, as I said before, this sort of really heavy, dark thing. I mean sometimes it is inevitably when you're talking about, you know, things like addiction or, or, um, suicide, but, but even when those topics, we try to kind of bring it back to a place that's very relatable for people.

Tina: 29:45 That's really good. I was thinking about the episode that you did on what it go with Elsa and major depressive disorder. And so that, I mean, major depressive disorder is depressing topic. I mean it's, yeah, it's heavy. It's, there's nothing light about it. But yet when I listened to the episode, it's, it's fun to listen to because you're talking about Ana and Elsa and then Mike gives his perspective and he, I could hear when he talked about the line of conceal don't feel, and, and I could tell that really resonated with him. And so, yeah, he's, he's sorta funny. He kind of, you can hear he's deep and you can hear that. But yet he sort of, he, he's maybe a little bit like me kind of like laughs about things you know, lasts about for sure. So, but I could tell that really meant a lot to him and I, I can relate to that as well.

Tina: 30:35 Just sort of like can keep everything hidden, you know, kick, kind of keep the facade up. Um, so people don't, I've struggled with depression myself and I think I probably one of those people that are, most people at work would think there's no way I struggled with depression cause I smile all the time. Laugh all the time. That's right. Everything's a joke. Everything's a joke for me. I mean like I have to be careful sometimes we kept patients die on our floor so, so I, that's how I cope. So I will turn everything into a joke. So I have to be really careful because it, the, the sadder it is or the more serious it is, the more I want to laugh. I don't know why I'm like that, but I am terrible at funerals. Like, sometimes I have to pinch myself so hard to just like make myself cry, to keep myself from laughing.

Ryan: 31:21 Well, certain type of funerals. That's, that's the vibe I know. Um, so I've, I've certainly had funerals in, in different parts of my family. Were you sort of celebration of the person is perfectly appropriate yet, so. So yeah. I mean it's like you said, it's a certain kind of defense mechanism but, but knowing yourself and you can kind of recognize if I'm forcing a laugh right now, like what's going on for me, that maybe I can also get in touch with the other emotions. So yeah. But I'm very grateful for people like you sharing your own experiences and I've, I've, I continue, I continue to be grateful to Mike [inaudible] for sharing his experience was on our show. Um, even if it's in a lighthearted, funny way that we talk about it.

Tina: 32:00 Well, we really, I really appreciate you and appreciate your podcast. And you know, as far as when it comes to nursing out there are nursing, uh, there are, uh, psych nurses and we joke all the time on our floor about, because I work on a progressive critical care floor, so it's a Pcu and so we joke all the time that it's instead of progressive care unit, it's a psychiatric care unit because, you know, it's sort of funny when I think about how I said I don't, I would never want to be a psych nurse. I don't think I could ever handle it. It would just chew, it would hit too close to home for me. I would be, I would be constantly taking those issues home with and worrying about people. And when I'm on the floor working where I work, almost all of our patients have some kids shoes, I mean in one way or another.

Tina: 32:49 And some of them, it's just like an acute and stuff a lot. But they, you know, where there's some sort of an imbalance or something wrong with them that's causing them to be confused. But sometimes they have bipolar depression or whatever, all kinds of different issues that they, you know, they have in addition to what all the other comorbidities that they have going on. So as a nurse, I'm constantly having to think about this psychiatric type of, you know, side of it for my patients. I talk, you and I talked about, I told you I use the handle those hierarchy of needs all the time. As a nurse, I think about that, how people can't move to the next level until they have their basic needs met. And so we get patients all the time who were homeless and you just, it's just, you can't stand there and educate someone about the importance of taking their blood pressure medication when they don't have a house.

Ryan: 33:40 Yeah. It's unfortunate, but true. I'm very grateful for her psychiatric nurses and when I've worked in inpatient or outpatient units where we've needed a nurse on staff, it's, it's always been a very grateful, um, relationship to have that person that you can go to that has obviously the medical expertise but also has the, you know, I always felt like there was a different sort of comfort that the nurse was able to offer. You know, whether that's just, you know, sometimes in group someone will complain of a headache, whether they actually had a headache or not, wasn't really the point. It was just like, okay, here's a pass to go see the nurse. And then they would come back and even if even if the, if they got Advil or not, then the nurse made them feel better. If something about that, you know, addressing the medical needs and having that backup was, was so important. When I've had the, the pleasure of having access to a psychiatric nurse, it's always been something I've really tried to appreciate it. So, so thank you. Even, even if you're not a psychiatric nurse, as you said, you're probably doing a lot of that inadvertently. Yeah.

Tina: 34:38 Yes, definitely. Well I guess that pretty much wraps it up for episode. Do you have anything else you want to say?

Ryan: 34:45 Yeah, we, we, we have a great conversation obviously on pop psych one on one. I do a little bit of writing if people were interested on, on following other stuff that I do over on medium. So that's at Ryan Angle stead and we love for people to join the conversation whether it's on Twitter or Facebook. So yeah, happy to talk about this stuff anywhere.

Tina: 35:03 Lots of really good conversations on your Facebook page for sure. I love that that group that you have there and um, and your Instagram and Mike does such a good job hitting little, I don't know what you call them. I don't think there audio grams cause he does something mentioned video Greg. Yeah, he does really good

Ryan: 35:21 with the total aspect of our,

Tina: 35:24 yeah, other part. I'm very grateful to him. He did a, he helped me out with a little episode of those special episode that I did on the Rohingya refugees and it was just, it was like the perfect touch. He added to it and it just made it so nice and I really appreciate him so much. Well, thank you so much, Ryan. I appreciate you and appreciate Mike for Letting me borrow you for an episode. So I guess I'll be signing off for now. You guys, be sure and get in touch with me on Facebook and Instagram. Send me messages. You know, I love to hear from you. It's always so encouraging to hear from my listeners and I just want to remind you guys that even if you're a bad girl or a bad boy, be a good nurse.