Hey everybody, this is Tina again, good nurse, bad nurse. And today I have the CNA who is looking forward to going to nursing school at some point

very soon if the waitlists wasn't too

course and waitlist there. It is a matter where you are. They're awful. But this is Alec. Hello Alec.

Hello everyone. So excited to be here.

Yay. Welcome to the show. So Alec is, Alec messaged me on Facebook and was just like, Hey, love the show or whatever. And I could just hear the passion in your voice for nursing. And I love it because number one, being so young and interested in nursing and helping other people. But number two, the fact that you're a CNA and you still want to go to nursing school. I mean, I hate to say it, but a lot of people that go to nursing school sometimes they don't really know what they're getting into, but if you're a CNA, you've been doing patient care, you know the down, right?

They pre exposed to a lot of weird things and fluids.

And so for somebody of your age to be able to go through that, do the things that C and A's have to do, nurses have to do and to still want to do that to care for people. I was like, would you be willing to come on the show cause you gotta be an amazing person and you're going to be a wonderful nurse when you, when you finally get to the end of that daggum waiting.

Yeah. Well I'm just kind of stuck in the limbo of prerequisites at the moment. So yeah. Yeah. I'm really looking forward because being a CNA definitely set it in stone. Yeah, you need to go further.

That's awesome. Well I'm excited for you. So thanks for coming on the show. First we're going to talk a little bit about this news story that I was so fascinated with. Cause Chipotle Mexican grill has hired nurses to basically field calls from its workers that are like calling in. So they call in and I'm like, Oh, I can't come into work. I've got a cold, I've got, I've got the flu, I've got whatever. And they're like, Oh no. Talk to a nurse, the nurse assesses them or triages them, like that's like a tele triage kind of thing. And then decides whether or not they actually are sick or maybe they're just suffering from a hangover.

My first question is like, is that even like success full? Like if it's over the phone you can definitely just make up like flu symptoms. Like I puked two hours ago. So not coming in

bizarre to me when I first read it. But sometimes these news websites, I mean legitimate websites, CNN, any of them can, you know, have a little bit of bait cliquey kind of thing. So they're like sure. Trying to be sensational. So when I started sort of got into the story looking at it, I mean what is the first thing you think of when you think of [inaudible]?

Quick and easy food.

Okay. I'm glad you said that. I hate to say this, but the first thing I think of when I think of Chipolte wait is E Cola. And that's awful. I know that's bad. Well, I liked Chipola and we still eat there, but it's been all over the news happened. And it, and it happened more than once. So it's like, so people are kind of like, well, you know, I gave you a second chance, but they've really, they've been hit hard because of this. And so this is actually all part of a big campaign for them to get back on track and it gained the trust of their customers so that people are like, okay, we can see that you're taking this seriously and that you are don't want to be making the public sick anymore. So it's not necessarily that they're just going like, we're going to, if you call in sick, we're going to make sure it's not a hangover actually the campaign is to, or the this whole new process they have, it's, it's all part that's actually a part of this effort to try to make sure that they don't have employees there who have some sort of illness that they could transmit to customers.

So say for instance, they call in and like, Oh, I'm not feeling well, I've got a cough and I think I might be contagious. So then Chipotle is like talk to a nurse and I would imagine, I think there's probably going to be something like a protocol that the nurse is going to look certain questions that the nurse asks and if they answer yes to any of the questions, it's like, well then you can't come to work with the nursing telehealth. The way that that works is they do have these protocols. And so what you would do is you would say, well, what are your symptoms? And then if the person says, well, I've been vomiting and I've got a bad headache, and they give you these different symptoms, then you take those symptoms and you kind of plug them into the computer and their computer says you should use this protocol.

It spits you out this protocol with all these questions. And then it tells you what to tell the person. So the nurse is actually basically just like, is your headache the worst headache you've ever had before in your life? And like did it feel like a Thunderclap? And then that's the first, it's usually, it starts with the worst possible thing. It could be like you're having an aneurism and so and so the person's like, actually, yes it is the worst headache I've ever had in my entire life. And they're just go to the ER. Okay, hang up the phone and dial nine one one. So that's sort of how that works. So I'm thinking it's probably something like that where they're really trying to assess whether the person is going to be coming into work, handling food, and that's going to be given to the public and the public's going to eat it and get sick and go to the doctor and they're going to go, where did you eat?

And they're gonna go a little Chipolte lay and they're gonna say, well yeah, I'm sorry. It's awful. I'm probably going to edit out a lot of this cause I don't him to fall late. It'd be like are coming out or this is more negative publicity. But I do. But I do think it is an effort on triple A's part too, to keep that from ever happening again. They don't want employees coming in. But the way that these news articles, these news outlets have kind of put a spin on it, like they're trying to determine whether or not that person can call out because they have a hangover. I don't know. It's just kind of,

well, I think what you said about the clickbait type thing, I a lot, I mean they have to make their money, so that's how they're going to get people in. As you read down articles though, then you start seeing the facts and you're like, Oh, it's not as bad. But I think they went to an extreme like, well I think a good extreme like going all the way like, okay, we're going to actually just hire nurses. So I wouldn't think about that. Like places I've worked before. I mean I worked in food before and if you're sick you call and they just say, okay, don't come in. But nurses, you get to talk to them. I mean, that's awesome. Yeah,

they're kind of like, you know, we really have to show that we're taking this very, very seriously because you know, otherwise you would think they could just do something like maybe check with some sort of healthcare provider and say, what questions should we ask? Someone who is having symptoms so that we know whether it's safe for them to come in and work or not. And then all they would have to do is tell their employees like if you have any symptoms whatsoever or not feeling bad or not feeling well at all, we need you to call and let us know so that we can ask you these questions to make sure you don't come in. They are, they want to show that they're so serious that I feel like, you know, they're, they're hiring these nurses. If you have any symptoms, call in to this number. They get these nurses and they say, Hey, am I having symptoms and I need to know whether it's okay to go go to work or not. And the nurses ask the questions and they're like, yeah, you can go ahead and go to work. You shouldn't be contagious. You just have a hangover.

Yeah. I was wondering about, I was like, was this happening in a college town?

What's going on?

There are like symptoms in a hangover and the flu I guess.

Yeah, cause it's a, and you would think that somebody would know almost have like enough common sense. Why would a nurse have to be like, Hey, did you drink five gallons of vodka last? And they're like, Oh yeah, I did. I did do that. Yeah. That might be why you don't feel good. It's not contagious. You can go to work. Maybe a stretch. But so anyway, I thought that was kind of interesting. But it is, it's good that Chipotle is taking this so seriously. They want everyone to know that not only are they assessing their, their workers to make sure that their workers are well and not going to be having something that they can pass on to their customers. They also are really looking at the cleaning techniques that they have and that the cl, the cleaners that they use. So I don't know if maybe what they were doing before wasn't, didn't kill germs.

Maybe. I don't know. Some people use like a natural kind of cleaner cause they don't want to have chemicals. Some people are like, Oh I use an all natural like house cleaner cause I don't want to have chemicals all over my, I don't want to have bleach everywhere or whatever. These, you know, manmade chemicals that you can like on your counter and then you put your food on there and then you, you're eating chemicals. So I don't know if AAA was doing something like that where they just didn't want to have the harsh chemicals but it wasn't killing. You know those like the Lysol spray out, it says it kills you and 9.9% of germs, right. Those household cleaners, they don't do that and that, that's not a bad thing if you're at your house. But if you're at Chipotle lay where you have all these communicable diseases at people all over, yeah, you probably have to have something that's going to kill 99.9% of the charge

maybe to right for a norovirus killing cleaner. They're like nothing.

No we don't. We will want all the viruses. We'll take them all. I'll have my semi seven layer burrito with a side and norovirus. Yes please. Thank you. So that is our news story and we will get into our, our bad doctor story this week we have a new sponsor. Incredible health is the name of the company. They are a permanent staff and agency. The way that it works is like you go on to their website, you fill out a profile and sign up and then choose what hospitals you want to work for. And then the hospitals are able to then to sign on, see the different profiles and choose someone to come in for an interview. So it's kind of like your put yourself out there and they come and request interviews from you. I think that's kinda of

cool. That's really cool. I feel like that's a lot less work for busy nurses.

You don't waste time that way because really if you think about it, if the employer is that interested that they are reaching out to you, you know you're probably going to have a pretty good chance.

It's going to say. That's good news.

So go to incredible health.com forward slash good nurse show our sponsors. You really love us and create a profile today. So we will go ahead and get into this Whopper. A bad doctor. Sorry. So this is actually the story of dr Robert new Lander in his wife Leslie. This was a 48 hours in NBC. Dateline. Both did this story. So Leslie new Lander was 61 she was a devoted mother to four children, Brian, Emily, Jenna and Ari. And she was involved in multiple charities including rebuilding homes on the Gulf coast after Katrina, hurricane Katrina, she with operation Southern comfort, she worked with the sisters of st Francis restoring homes in Appalachia. That's actually really near and dear to my heart cause I live where I live is the Appalachia mountains run run right through here. I think that's amazing. If was involved in a lot, a lot more charities even than that and a longtime supporter of the Syracuse stage and symphony that she was community center, Syracuse, Hebrew day school, rabbi Epstein, Hebrew high school.

So she was just very active in a lot of different charities. So I think she sounds like a wonderful person. So she was married to dr Robert new Lander. He was beloved obstetrician. They had been married for 28 years when this happened. So just to kind of like catch people up on what was kinda going on up to this point, about three years before Leslie died, dr Nuland or got into a legal dispute with an insurance company that they kicked him out of their network because of what they said was incorrect billing practices that netted him over payments of more than one point $8 million. That's a lot of money. Think about it. They come in and audit his practice and they say, Oh, you know what? Over the past few years you have been making these billing errors and you haven't been. You've been reporting things that you shouldn't have been reporting.

And so we've been paying you money and we need you to pay us back. Well, he refused to pay the insurance company and he said it was on principle because he didn't think he owed the money. And he hired a private company to come in and audit, do their own audit. And they determined that that insurance company's audit was wrong. So he felt like, well now I had an independent company come in and they said that the way that we reported it was correct, so I'm not going to pay. Well, the insurance company decided, well, if you're not gonna pay us back, we're dropping you. So they were refusing to allow their clients who had their insurance to go to see him. Well, this insurance particular insurance company is huge where he was, and pretty much most of his patients had that insurance. I mean, if you have most people, most people who have insurance have it through their employer and they don't get to choose.

You don't just go out and say, I'm going to use blue cross or I'm gonna use Aetna or whatever, Cigna, you use what company your employer uses. Right. So even if you are really loyal and love this guy and he's delivered all of your other children, so you want to use him, but your insurance company's like, no, you can't do that because we don't like him now. Right. We're not accepting. We're not going to pay any. He's going to be considered out of network. So they, you have to, you have to think that people are going to be like, well, I can either stay devoted to this obstetrician and pay out of network costs. That's it. It's a lot. I was going to say it's going to be expensive. Yeah. And babies are not cheap.

They're so cute. But they're so expensive to have just to have them, you know? So these people left the practice, they left his practice and went to other doctors, even if they didn't want to, you know, a lot of them just were like, eh, I gotta I gotta bounce. Sorry. Yeah. So he lost his practice because of this. And he sued the insurance company. And ultimately the judge decided they're not responsible for the loss of your, your patients. And so he lost. So that was a, that was a rough few years that he went through. And that happened right before all this happened. So did he ever get those patients back or no, because he started working at a hospital. He was in private practice and then when this happened he had to kind of go back working for the hospital, which is kind of what doctors do, you know, it's usually the reverse of that.

You start working at hospital and then you build up, you know, get your own practice. So our transition, I know it would be hard, I would think to go back and he was delivering like half the babies that he was before. I mean, I'm just sure it was really stressful on probably the whole family, you know. So all that's going on. And then on the morning of September 17th, 2012 the new Landers, 23 year old daughter, Jenna, new Lander called nine one one. And the recording of the nine one one call. You can hear Jenna. Oh gosh, that's nine one one call is probably, it's the most gut wrenching on one one call I've ever heard. Yeah, no, it's just so sad and so scary to listen to so you can hear her saying if someone coming and then you can hear yelling. My mom, my mom, my mom.

It's hard to listen to. It's really hard to listen to you. She's obviously completely shocked and overwhelmed at what she's seeing. She's horrified. She's confused. It's just awful. At one point you can hear her say there's blood everywhere and so dr Nuland or what had happened is he yelled for Jana to call nine one one he said he had just found his wife Leslie in the bathroom floor and that it appears she slipped in the shower and hit her head. She had a massive head wound. Paramedics got there within minutes of the call coming in and one thing they noticed right away was that Leslie was not lying in the bathroom. She was in the bedroom on the floor near the bed and police saw blood in different areas of the bedroom, like pooled on the rug and spattered on the wall next to the bed and just kind of like, and even pretty high up on the wall. So there, there was kind of like, wow, what, what happened here? You know, and they're writers kind of going off, you know, like why is there blood for you hit her head on, you know, on the bench. I'm a picture and kind of like almost like a granite surface, you know, like a bench area probably pretty hard, you know? And so I could see that. And so they're thinking, well that's still, she hit her head in there. Why in the world is this mess in here?

Yeah. And not to mention like if she fell off, if she, supposedly they fell in there, you expect to find her in there 60 feet away,

somewhere close to in proximity or just maybe just right outside the bathroom because you want to try to lay somebody out and floor. But she was 60 feet away. Yeah, it was just, they were just kinda like, what's going on here? Well, when they were interviewing everyone, his daughter said that she saw him carry her out of the bathroom about 60 feet into the bedroom. And he said that he did that because he could more comfortably perform CPR and you can hear her on the call on that nine one one call. You can hear her say, daddy don't move. Her daddy stopped moving her please. Oh. So that kind of corroborated the, the story that he moved her, you know, from the bathroom into the bedroom. So it seemed to match up when they looked at the patterns of blood from the shower, the bedroom, the pools of blood here and there. They said, Oh okay. That, that does match up. So the actual cause of death was ruled a blunt force head trauma due to a fall from standing. And so they concluded that she died from hitting her head on the shower bench. And then, you know, it was all of the, the blood transfer, you know, kind of happened when just trying to save her. Well. Then shortly after that there's a Mary Jim Bellack as well. How I'm going to pronounce that.

I think that's right. Yeah. Okay.

She had been the county's chief medical examiner for 11 years until she retired in 2009 so she had just recently retired a few years before and she was also a good friend of the new Landers. She started getting some calls from friends and they were saying things like, we don't think it was an accident. Could you maybe look into this? What do you think happened? Small, she's cheese. And that's kind of what she was thinking. She thought, Oh, this is just people talking as people will do it. It was happening so often that she decided, I'm just going to look at the evidence. I'll just, Oh, I'll just take a look. She just sort of volunteered to do it pro bono. And when she started looking at the evidence, she said, wow, I've only really seen injuries like this for victims of like car accidents falls from like a 20 story building, someone that's beaten, like never just like a slip and fall in the shower. And she's a doctor. She is the medical examiner. She was a medical examiner. So she is looking at the injuries to the back of her, this woman's head and she's saying this is not consistent with just a slip and fall on, you know, onto this bench. So her expert opinion was that it was a homicide and that it was blunt force trauma that caused it as an assault, not as an accident. I wonder how big the laceration was.

Touche. And I don't even, I don't even know how you would explain like what her wound looked like.

Right. And there was more than one and that was another, another reason why they were kind of like, okay, slip and fall. You're probably going to maybe hit one time, but there was more than, yeah, there was more than one place that was injured. So then the police get wind of this private investigation that had been going on and and the conclusion that the medical examiner, this experienced medical examiner who had just worked recently was saying, and so they said, okay, we, we may need to revisit this. And so they go back to the house. It had been sold, but there wasn't anyone living there. And apparently the, I guess the evidence hadn't been disturbed either. Really? Yeah, because they said that the house had been sold, but there wasn't anyone living there. So they actually were able to go, they could still see blood all over the back of the headboard on the bed. So there the furniture must have still been in the house. The blood was still there. I don't know if maybe there was some sort of court order that even though the, the house changed hands and someone bought it, they weren't allowed to tamper with it maybe until the investigation's over. Maybe. I don't really understand that though, because it had been ruled an accident. True. Unless it just happened so quickly. I, I don't really know. But yeah, that's just super unhygienic just to leave blood everywhere and not,

not to mention when you get an injury to your head, there's going to be a lot of blood.

And that is true. And that's something that you have to think about in this case because I mean, do you just a little laceration to your forehead looks like Helter Skelter. I mean, you think you're dying. I'm like, Oh gosh, I'm going to bleed to death. It's just so vascular, you know? And so it's not unusual to have a lot of blood with a head injury like that. And that's another thing to take into consideration. And I'm sure the police know that they've seen enough head injuries, I'm sure. So they go back and one of the things that they found is that there was blood all over the back of the headboard on the bed and they found blood spatter on the blinds behind the bed. So that seemed odd. They're thinking now. He said that she fell in the shower, then was moved here. Why would you have blood spatter?

And I think at this point with forensic files and all of the shows like this, you, everyone kind of knows that little specks of blood don't, that they only get there from cast off or from like an impact. Yes, from an impact or some you like slinging something. If you, there's ways it can get there. And even in this show, there was a forensic forensic expert who put like fake blood in her hands and she got in a, clapped her hands together and it showed how like casts onto the wall. But that's really the only way that that gets there. How did that happen if she, if the impact happened in the bathroom and then in the bedroom it was just like, you know, laying her on the floor doing CPR. Those things shouldn't have caused cast off, up onto the blinds. No, no. And that's kind of what they were thinking.

So dr Nuland or voluntarily went in for an interview with the prosecutors and investigators. He even acknowledged that they had had some marital problems and that they had thought about a trial separation, but he said that the night before Leslie died, the couple along with their son Ari, and that's how I think you pronounce that name and their daughter Jenna. They had a family dinner at a friend's home and then afterwards Ari went back to his college dorm and then Jana went back home with her parents. So they said, good night and this is according to dr Nuland are they? They said goodnight to each other, love each other, everybody gets, and then everybody went to bed and that's this. According to dr new Lander in his interview he said, then the next morning he went for a jog. I had a nearby park and and then went in and brought Leslie her usual cup of morning coffee when he got back. I cannot tell you the number of these stories that I do where it says the husband brought the wife a cup of coffee when I first started doing this podcast and I would hear this like, and I brought her her cup of coffee. I'll like look the market. I'm like, what is going on here? Why are you not bringing me a cup of coffee in the morning? Why is these people bringing coffee there? Their wife in the morning. I want this service.

Wouldn't that also mean that he has to like, see that's what I'm starting to see a pattern here where maybe the type of person he brings coffee, I don't know. I'm just saying I'm not in coffee equals murder. I probably need to get suspicious if he ever starts doing this. Just give it a try a few times. It sounds wonderful. But then more I think about it man, maybe not. Oh my mom coffee. So then he says he's going to bring her her coffee and he hears the shower. So he says, well I hear the water running and I put the coffee down in the nightstand and then about an hour later he came back in to check on her

like a welfare check. Well because this is her

bedroom, I guess I have, they have separate bedrooms. They don't sleep in the same room. Red flag. I don't know if it's because, well, maybe she would have normally come down stairs by then maybe. And he's kind of like, what's going on? Haven't heard from her in a while. Go back up and see what's going on. I guess that's reasonable. So he goes, he goes in to check on her and he sees her lying on the shower floor and he says he started CPR. He tried to call nine one one but the bathroom phone wasn't working. So then he went toward Jenna's, his bedroom and yelled at her to call nine one one and at the time that she made that phone call, it was 8:25 AM and so she says, okay, my mother, I don't know if she's breathing, she's laying on the ground in the shower.

And then he said he went back to Leslie and moved her because he couldn't see the lighting, wasn't Mary Kay in the bathroom and he needed more space and better room to be able to perform CPR. So then you can hear Jenna in the background on the nine one one call saying, dad put her down. Her neck might be broken. And he put her down just outside the bathroom to give her mouth to mouth before he moved her again. So this sort of explains these different, these multiple areas of blood almost. Yeah. Well, it's his explanation. And then you hear Janet say, daddy, don't move her daddy. Stop moving her please. And the prosecutors argue that even if you don't have any medical knowledge, you know, not to move a victim with a head injury. Their thing is, why would he, even if you felt like you needed to move her just outside the bathroom for different reasons, to have more room, why then continue to move her on into the bedroom.

I mean, he, he's been a doctor for like 30 years, but, and I understand that he didn't work in trauma or any emergency response care, but also you're still a doctor. You've gone to medical school, you know?

Oh yeah, you should definitely, I guess I, it does seem like it would be reasonable. And at the same time, I think, you know, I hear this all the time as well. People always say, you don't know how you're gonna react in a situation like this until you're put in the situation. And so maybe all of everything that you know about med, all your medical knowledge, everything goes out the window. You're just in shock. Your brain is just like completely empty. And yeah, all the adrenaline, all the fear, everything. When a few years ago Levi hit his head and it caused all these problems. He had a concussion and had to go to the emergency room and he was really confused and he like said all his words wrong. He would try to talk and the words would come out in the wrong order. Oh no. Yeah. And it was really scary.

And then he was fine and they sent him back home. And then a few days later he had a full blown tonic clonic seizure, just completely eyes rolled back and had bored stiff entire body trembling, the whole thing. Well [inaudible] nurse, I'm a nurse and, but this is my son. And so I, I panicked. I was just like call nine one one and I don't, I didn't know a whole lot of else to say at the point. At that point I was just so overwhelmed and shocked and Mark later said, I thought he was dying. I didn't know he was having a seizure. I thought he was dying. And I was like, I wish I had thought to say to Mark, he's got, he's okay, he's just having seizure because I did know that, but Mark didn't and I felt terrible. So I do think that it's possible for people in situations like this to do things that they would maybe not otherwise have done and maybe just act really bizarrely and think that I can see them.

Yeah. Yeah. So just trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. I who knows what normal is and who knows how anyone really would react in this situation. And everyone's different too. You know, just one person reacts in one way, but the prosecution developed their own theory of what actually happened. They think that before the nine one one call was placed hours before, not just before, but hours before, early in the morning when it was still dark. That doctrine Uhlaender assaulted his wife in the bedroom and that likely she probably ran into the bathroom after that and that he struck her head on the shower bench and they think that she may have already been in the process of dying at that point and then he made up the story that he found her in the shower and called Virginia so that he would have a witness to see him carrying her, her back to the bedroom in order to explain the blood trail from the assault and all that happened in the different, you know, pools of blood.

He probably didn't even see all that cast off and all the little specks of blood because it would have still been dark and that's what they're, the prosecution's theory is it's still dark outside and so they, he, he doesn't even realize that there's anything there to, to worry about or to try to explain. Also he says an explanation for all the little spatters of blood is that he was wearing this long sleeve shirt that got absolutely soaked with blood from her wounds that were bleeding so profusely and that he took off that shirt and slung it and the blood sort of like slung from the shirt and it, the spatter sort of landed on the walls, the bed, the blinds or whatever. Huh, okay. Okay. The app, there's a few problems with that that the prosecution had and one of those is that they couldn't find the shirt anywhere. Right. The shirt did not exist. It was never found is still to this day not been found.

That just screams guilty right there.

Well, I just wear it. It's, they didn't go anywhere between the time that supposedly, right. Yeah. I mean there was no, where would it possibly have gone? I guess it's possible that in collecting evidence something could get lost that, so anything's possible. Also the couple had a long time housekeeper and she was very close to the new Landers. So when she went in to try to provide any clues or tr just you know, in interview to try to anything that she could see that might be out of place. The first thing that she noticed was that the sheets that were on the bed were not the sheets that she put on, you know, that previous day. And she was confident about that. So the da believes that dr Nuland or got rid of the sheets, got rid of whatever weapon was used and that he did go on a run, but that when he went on the run, he got rid of all of that evidence and then came back and then staged everything and called Virgina called nine one one.

Do you think if he is, if he did do it, do you think he would have initially did it while she was sleeping in bed? Well, I,

I want, you know, you just wonder, like, if it happened that way, if it happened the way the prosecution says that it did, it seems unlikely that they would have gotten in an argument that early in the morning and have got that came to heated blows and, and to where he would get so mad that he would lash out accidentally kill her. It seems like if it happened early in the morning and it did not happen at all the way he says that, it seems like it would almost have to be planned. Uh, you know? Yeah. I mean, according to, uh, if you went with the prosecution's theory and you went, okay, yeah, I can see that. If you're, say you're a juror and you hear that, if you, you, you, you, if it were me, I would probably think I'm, if I'm going to buy the prosecution's theory that that's what happened. I, it's really hard for me to imagine that he went in there for something in the morning, four 30 in the morning and somehow got into an argument with her.

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, yeah. Very good way of thinking about that. I did not think. Oh wow. And that gets a few gears grinding in my head now.

So dr or his family say that the defense or say that the prosecution has it all wrong. Leslie's own children are absolutely behind him. 100% Leslie's own sister is a hunt is behind him 100% and so that's something that if you think about it, this family, it was very, very close, very tight knit. They had, they showed videos of the children, they could making little home videos for Leslie and say anything, you know, just kinda like happy birthday and what a wonderful mom she is. And they would kind of like joke around about just different little quirks that she had. It's just so, so endearing and so sweet to see how much they obviously loved their mother so much. So they're, what the defense is saying is there's no way that these people that love their mother so much, the her own sister would be standing behind him if there was any way that they thought that he did this and they, they don't, they, they are standing behind him 100% so, and even Jenna and Jenna was there, she was in the house.

She saw him moving her mother. She called nine one one. So Jenna would have to be either completely either lying to herself and be in any kind of denial and just wanting to believe what she wants to believe or, or just outright lying. The prosecution said that the, the 48 hours, the guy that was interviewing them said if you gave her truths, Aaron and said, who killed your, did your dad kill your mom? They said the pro. Do you think that she would, what would she say? And the prosecutor said, I think she would say no because I think she really believes he didn't because she really wants to. That's what she wants to believe. Cause she loves both her mom and dad so much that she cannot accept. You know, she'll think any in a scenario or any theory that she possibly can to make it fit in her mind that her dad did not do this to her mom.

She's either completely oblivious to like what's happening around her or she's just, the problem is she idolizes them so highly and that makes it really hard. I feel so bad for her in this situation.

I do too. No matter what the actual truth is that happened here, the just what she has had to and all those children have had to go through is just awful because you can see the love that they have for both of their parents and so it really is. It's just so bad.

Yeah.

The defense also says that there was a reason that Leslie would have fallen that morning. They said that she suffered from vertigo, which is just just getting dizzy, you know, that's dizzy and that she suffered from that. Her personal trainer told the jury that her condition had gotten so even worse recently and her sister testified that it ran in the family and that she even suffered from it herself. This dizziness. And so their thing there, the defense is saying it would not have been unreasonable or a stretch to think that she got dizzy in the bathroom and hit her head. Maybe, you know, so you fall, you hit your head, now you're confused that highly vascular area blood is probably going everywhere and you try to stand up, you're confused. Just slip, maybe fall again, hit your head again. So that's, that would account for the multiple injuries. And so that's kind of what they're saying, what people said about the, the family, they were a wonderful couple. Everyone knew them, they were the perfect couple perfect marriage. Even according to his own account afterwards. That wasn't exactly true. And you know, people, people can put up, as we all know from fake book, people can put on a show, you know,

can they ever, yeah.

What you choose to show the world is not in your community around you, is not always necessarily what's going on in real life. But this patients loved him. The people around him, you know, they said he was compassionate, kind, knowledgeable. He was so caring with his patients and so it was just hard for all of anyone around him to believe that he did this.

Yeah, it's hard to, yeah. I mean, bringing children into the world. Who thinks about someone doing, taking someone out of the world.

Exactly. The defense also had their own medical examiner that said that her head injuries would have been consistent with a fall in the shower. Jenna got on the stand and told the jury what happened in the home that morning and she said that she had been with her mother in Leslie's bedroom until 2:00 AM so it's, I kind of, I envisioned almost like they, you know, they had been out to eat at a friend's, all of them, family, friend, having dinner and then get home and everybody goes to bed. And then that I could imagine Jenna going into her mom's room and I'd be sitting on the side of the bed and talking for a little while, you know, a little while longer if it's so sweet. But she says she clearly remembers the sheets on her mom's bed that night and they're the same ones that are in those photos that you, if you go online, you can see these awful photos of the scene that you know of what happened.

And you know, the housekeeper said that she, that those sheets had been changed. They're not the ones that she put on the day before, but Genesis, they're the ones that were there at two o'clock in the morning when I was sitting at my mom's bed talking to her. I mean, it's kind of, I don't, I'm like, I would gen a lie. I don't, she doesn't really, when I watch her, when I watch her interviews with her in her, with her dad and with her family, she's seen and hear her on that nine one one call. She seems like the most genuine person and I just cannot imagine. I cannot imagine her lying deliberately to try to cover up something for her dad. I just don't, I really don't.

I think either way and either way you look at it, she, I, she's innocent. But yeah, listening to, I only listen to the nine one one calls and just from the report on CBS news, like I can tell she's just being genuine. Yeah,

absolutely. There's just no way. There's just no way. No one is that there are Oscar winning actors that could not pull off that performance.

But it makes you happy. It makes it even harder though to come to a verdict because she's obviously innocent. She's telling us the truth. But then there's like one of the, one of the biggest evidence pieces, which are the sheets one side saying they're different on science, saying that they're the same. Like it's so stressful.

Well, because those sheets didn't have any blood on them. They would have had to have had blood on them obviously if he had attacked her on the bed where the blood was on the headboard and the blinds above. So if, if she was attacked in bed or you know, near the bed, the way the prosecution is saying happened, there would have been blood all over the sheets and there just wasn't any. So if those are the sheets that were there at two in the morning and they were not changed, then there's no way he did this. So the prosecution says that they believe that Jenna does believe that he did not kill her mother, but that because she does believe that she's so strongly believes that that she might be willing to stretch some details in order to keep him from going to prison for something that she believes he didn't do.

That's their theory. So because otherwise it makes no sense. Someone who you just, you don't think would lie about something like this. But yet if she's telling the truth, there's no way he did it. So that's the prosecution's way of saying, of getting around that detail saying yeah, she's a wonderful person who would not want to in any way accuse her of being involved or even of trying to cover up her mother's murder, but maybe trying to protect her father when she doesn't believe he did it. Right. So this, okay, so now we're kind of, there is a whole scenario here that the prosecution goes through that, and we were talking about this before I, when I was trying to nail down exactly what the prosecution was saying, I'm like, there's no, they, they were kind of saying like, there's no way she was able to do what she says she did because of the way the phone call came in and that she had to put the sheet calls.

She called nine one one then from where she was, she had to put them on hold. She couldn't carry the, it wasn't like a cordless phone. She couldn't carry it with her, so she had to put them on hold, go to where her, you know, where the bedroom, where this happened or the bathroom. And so they kind of outlined the whole, the whole timeline and they said that there's no way that her story lines up with all of the evidence. When I was trying to get all that, I was so confused when I was trying to like understand their point of view and their timeline. I finally gave up and I was like, I, I don't think I can understand it. But you, you, you kind of figured out sort of what they, what they were saying happened. Could you kind of explain to everybody?

So what had happened was Jen had called nine one one and eventually she's going to [inaudible]. She wants to go see what's happening. Her, her dad came down into the hallway and yelled for her to call nine one one. So she goes to her mom's office, which isn't far from her room. It's probably just in that same corridor or hallway, you know, this is a big house. This is a mansion like house. So it wasn't too close, but it wasn't too far. So she goes into her office, the first phone she sees calls nine one one and is talking to the operator. But eventually she's like, I have to, I have to see like what's actually going on, how I was just told to call nine one one pretty much that that's how I processed it. So eventually she goes into the room and the nine one one operator can hear in the background, Oh my gosh, there's blood everywhere.

So the problem then becomes like, because later on they then here, no dad don't move, don't move. My mom don't move her. So if she saw blood everywhere, reddish, she went into the room, but he was just starting to move. Leslie, how did all of that blood get there? And that's there. And that's one of the main things they're trying to figure out. That's also something that really big that they have against 10 saying that she was attacked in the room and the final blow was done in the bathroom. Yeah, he staged it. So [inaudible] honestly if she, if he really is he, he's smart. He's,

yeah, because he did. He did think about it. If in fact that's how that happened because he probably, if, if this is the, if the prosecution's is true and he pretty much reverse engineered the whole thing, then he knew that his, that the evidence was not going to, to match. And so he was like, Oh, I gotta account for this. And to me that really, I mean, think about it, someone in this situation, the reason that people tend to make mistakes when they do, when they commit crimes is because you've got all these chemicals and adrenaline, everything running through your veins that you don't normally have when you're not committing a crime like this. And so this is why every week a good nurse banners, we always tell our listeners, people don't kill anyone, don't plan anything. You cannot plan this stuff out. And when it actually happens and it plays out, you're going to make a thousand mistakes.

You cannot plan the perfect murder people. No, Nope. So what I, it's amazing to me that he was able to sort of improvise in that situation and, and do what all he did. If in fact what the prosecution is saying is true. What you're saying happened is Jenna calls from her bedroom on a landline with a cord. So on the phone with nine one one needed to go where her mom was. So she put the phone down or kind of left it there, maybe on hold. She said she put it on hold. I don't know if she just meant lay it down, but then went into the bedroom. When she got into the bedroom, she saw blood everywhere. So what the prosecution is saying is that if she had walked into the bedroom or into the bathroom, and if she had seen her mother, the first thing that she saw, if her mom had been visible at that point, she would have said something about her mother, not about the blood being everywhere.

She would've immediately said, mom, her the words, mom, mommy, mom, mom would have come out. Not there's blood everywhere, because she didn't see her mom yet. It's what they're saying. She had to turn a corner. And so then she sees him moving her mom and she says, don't, don't move her. Don't move her. You know? That's when she starts screaming, mommy, mommy, mom. No, don't move her. Don't remember. You're going to hurt her. And that's what they're, that's their theory. So the jury deliberated for three days in this case. Can you imagine 12 people trying to agree, or two 13 or 14 people trying to agree on all the details. I would, I'm surprised that they were able to come up with a verdict that they all agreed on.

Yeah. I'm S like after 13 or after three days and eight days.

Yeah, eight days of trial. Three days of deliberating with just the jury. So two and a half years after her death, they found him guilty of her murder. And Jenna was heartbroken. She was screaming, crying out to her, her dad, when this happened, I was there. You didn't do it so awful. So the new Lander children immediately start trying to handle his appeal and calling for a hearing to throw us conviction. So what they found was that there was a juror, one of the jurors had been texting this jurors. This juror sent over 7,000 text messages during the, the, this whole trial. This, you know, eight days of eight days of the trial and three days of deliberations. This juror, yes, texted seven over 7,000 text messages and an alternate juror reported this juror and said that she knew that she was maybe texting details of the case.

So this alternate juror basically turned this other juror in and said, you know this, this juror was talking about the case during the trial and that is a major, no, no you can't, you can't even talk to each other. You can't talk to each other during the trial. You have to wait like [inaudible] when you go back to like the little cause hello air by nose on good nurse, bad nurse. I'm an expert. I've been on two two not one to two different times. I've been called for jury duty. I'm practically a lawyer. So honestly I haven't even been called yet.

So, but the thing is you cannot talk to each other. Certainly not anyone outside of the jury about the case while the trial is going on. It's not until the actual deliberation starts that you can even talk to each other and discuss the evidence. But you even then of course in this took three days. I don't know if they were sequestered or whatever. It sounds like they probably weren't and they were allowed to go home and they had family that even if they were sequestered, maybe they were allowed to keep their phones because she was texting up a storm. And um, some of the things that she was texting, she was texting with her father and her father said to her, make sure he's guilty. And she was just other things in these text messages that said that she was talking about things that were going on that was going on in the trial and it was inappropriate.

Well, the jail, when they found out, the judge basically said that he didn't feel like it impacted her because that juror had already made up her mind, like with the evidence that he, that she, the texts that she sent and or received, did not in any way sway her opinion. And so he let he let it go through. He knew this when they gave the verdict, which is crazy to me. I don't know how he didn't call a mistrial. So they went on through, she was found guilty and then the defense was like, no, we're filing a, um, yeah. Yeah. So it went before the appeals court and the appeals, the New York state court of appeals granted him a new trial due to juror misconduct. This just happened, just happened in October of 2019. So he's free, he's free on bail right now and he is awaiting a new trial.

So he technically right now, because that whole trial, it's as if that didn't happen. And so he was found guilty by those 12 people or something. He was found guilty. But now it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's, it's as if it didn't happen. So he's technically innocent because we're innocent until proven guilty. So he technically right now he's innocent and he's awaiting trial. And we have to assume, you know, that, that, that he's innocent until all the evidence, I guess is weighed in, in a court. So we don't really know how this whole thing is going to really play out. And um, and his family is still behind him. I mean that to me, it's very powerful to me that they went through this whole trial, all that evidence was laid out there and the family is still behind him. All four children and her sister are still behind him.

They must have had a very healthy family dynamic. Even even if they were talking about a separation of any sort and there was some financial trouble, they must've not put that burden onto their children. Yeah, exactly. I mean that's how it should be.

So that brings us to our good doctor. Sorry, I was love that. We have a nice little good story to end with. We kind of us out of all that ugly dark stuff. It's important to shine a light on darkness and things that happen. We need to all be aware of things like this that can happen, but at the same time it's kind of nice to end on a good note. Can you tell our listeners about this? And this is an OB GYN, so that same kind of dog, which I thought was cool.

So it's not actually a very long story either. So a man by the name of James Lusia, he was a part of a band. I know. I haven't heard of it. I don't know if anyone else has. I don't know if you have offspring.

I have never, I had never heard of this band.

This is going to be a lot of people besides you and I that listened to this. Oh yeah, listen to this. Yeah, I'm 21 I this, this band, they're still releasing things, but it was very popular back in the 1980s now, Dr. James Lucia, he was the drummer for this band and he was just very driven. He wanted to go to medical school and the people that he played with, they could tell that she was very driven to go to med school. He'd always talked about it. You really wouldn't come to rehearsals anymore because of his soul, like devoted to going to medical school and you know that's more than a full time job. So you don't really have time for extracurriculars. So he became a OB GYN. He's not with the band anymore. After many years and becoming a OB GYN, a very, a very good one.

He, he got stuck with email practice suit from one of his patients, miss, sorry, OTO. During one of the trials, one of the prospective jurors cause everything [inaudible] 36 they were trying to wind them down. One of the jurors collapsed his head and was knocked unconscious. Someone in the courtroom or wherever they were called for help, and Dr. James and his nurse assistant came running to help and they administer CPR and shock the man with an AED. And when paramedics eventually arrived, the man was unconscious, but he did have a pulse. So I don't know if the guy survived. There was, there is no report because HIPAA and the pretty interesting, the judge was like, Oh yeah, all of the jurors saw that this is, this is the guy that is, well, the man of the hour, I don't know if that's a plaintiff or the defendant.

I always get those two roles switched up, but we're here because of him. There is a possible malpractice suit against him and he just saved someone's life right in front of all the jurors. That's that prime that probably puts them at an unfair advantage despite all of any evidence that may be present. So they actually, it was called the jurors bias would be incurable. The judge dismissed the 35 jurors and set a new trial date for April 2nd this was back in 2018 I could not find any information. I don't know if you have based off where the trial is, but hopefully he saved a life.

I looked it up and they, the this case was ultimately dismissed and he did not have to, whatever it was, it didn't count anything.

I did read that. Yup. Okay. Yeah, so it was dismissed and because they went to an arbitrator so they could, it wasn't really court proceeding anymore. Instead they just sat down, two parties, got all the evidence and it was just dismissed. There wasn't enough,

but I thought this was so cool because number one, we were just, it's kind of weird that I would have found this story that is an OB GYN is performing CPR, so it's kind of [inaudible] sort of way or two, but that he was in this punk band and, and it says legendary punk band. I don't know. I like you said, I don't know him either, but maybe there's people, yeah.

One of the other articles, sentence researching says yes, the quote unquote pretty fly for a white guy band.

Yeah. That must be assault. So he apparently wrote a song called the headed.

Yeah. And it's kind of funny that the name of the band is offspring when now he's delivering offspring. I was like, so did you like he, I mean he co-created this band with whoever else was in it. So

if there was a connection,

right. Because I mean he always wanted to be a doctor and I think he always had his mind set on being an OB GYN. So I mean, in my mind it makes sense that he called it offspring.

I know the, it says they, they release their ninth album in 2012 so not him. Obviously he, he left the band a long time ago cause he went to medical school but they still stayed together. That's pretty cool. And releasing albums. I don't know. That's kind of cool.

I'm going to have to look it up then. Cause yeah, I wonder if that song is actually that one song pretty five for like, yeah, I don't know if that's like was actually popular in the 80s

I know. I, I mean I don't, I don't think so, but who knows, maybe I punk is probably one of those kind of genres that there are certain people that listen to it and if you get, if you talk to somebody in that kind of circle, then I bet you anything, those people are gonna be like, Oh, I know who that is.

Yeah. How don't you, it's like I listened to classical music. Complete opposite.

So I guess that's our good nurse, bad nurse episode for this week. Thank you so much, Alec.

Thank you. Yeah, no, thank you for having me. It. It was, I think we talked for less than a weekend. It happened today after hours of technical difficulties

so hard. And I, I learned something new all the time cause I've been doing this show all the time. So now I learned that if you have a Mac book you should use garage band. That was so simple.

It's free and I mean hopefully the quality comes out good. I mean,

yeah, I think it'll be great. I think it'll be fine no matter what. I want to remind you guys to go onto Instagram and follow us please at good nurse, bad nurse and go or Facebook GNBN podcast and go on our website. Good nurse, bad nurse.com send us an email if you have stories for us to do. Always love getting your stories. I keep getting more and more stories every week and I'm putting them, I'm trying to get organized now and I'm trying to put them in like a little database so I can get around to them because they're awesome. They're stories I probably would have never found on my own because they're, you know, local things that people know happened in their area.

So now you have a whole arsenal.

Yeah, exactly. And it's kind of cool if you know something that happened your area, don't assume that I could find it. It's, that's not necessarily the case that the internet is so weird cause you would think, Oh you can find anything on there. But the thing is if you go and looking for stories about a nurse, you're probably going to pull up like one particular story that it comes up all the time. That's, that made headlines. So it's not always easy to dig down and find all these stories. So if he got one, send it in for sure. And also I want to thank everyone for listening to the podcast because you guys have put us at the top of several charts. I'm so happy. It's crazy. I guess they send us emails every day to update this. Like Hey, here's, here's where you are on the charts kind of thing.

And we were really kind of scared when they, Apple recently changed their categories and they created all these sub categories and I was like it's gonna cause we were, we were charting before and, and I thought Oh dear, I don't know what's gonna happen and you guys are so amazing cause we are right up there with in the United States charts for documentaries and also we thank you whoever's listening for Mongolia because you were like the top 10 in Mongolia. So that's pretty cool. We made number one for one of our, one of our specific episodes, the one that Mark and I did. We were number one and I was like whoever you are in Mongolia, we live YouTube. Oh my gosh. That's awesome. Congrats. Thank you. Norway, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia also all over. We, they probably pop up on those charts and then in high in the charts like the top 20 top 30 and a lot of them. So thank you guys so much. You're obviously very loyal. Our listeners are so loyal. You it, we wouldn't be on those charts if you weren't, if you weren't downloading every week consistently, and we appreciate you so much. So having said that, I want you guys to always remember that even if you're a bad girl or a bad boy, right out, be a good nurse.